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AW: Re: ChessSystemTal2-v21 unbesiegbar?
Let's be definitely accurate: 1) from https://github.com/official-stockfis...a0117458cfc462 Code:
Commit e67cc97 Disservin committed on Feb 24, 2024 Stockfish 16.1 Official release version of Stockfish 16.1 Bench: 1303971 --- Stockfish 16.1 Today, we have the pleasure to announce Stockfish 16.1. As always, you can freely download it at https://stockfishchess.org/download and use it in the GUI of your choice[1]. Don't forget to join our Discord server[2] to get in touch with the community of developers and users of the project! *Quality of chess play* In our testing against its predecessor, Stockfish 16.1 shows a notable improvement in performance, with an Elo gain of up to 27 points and winning over 2 times more game pairs[3] than it loses. *Update highlights* *Improved evaluation* - Updated neural network architecture: The neural network architecture has undergone two updates and is currently in its 8th version[4]. - Removal of handcrafted evaluation (HCE): This release marks the removal of the traditional handcrafted evaluation and the transition to a fully neural network-based approach[5]. - Dual NNUE: For the first time, Stockfish includes a secondary neural network[6], used to quickly evaluate positions that are easily decided. *UCI Options removed* `Use NNUE` and `UCI_AnalyseMode`[7] have been removed as they no longer had any effect. `SlowMover`[8] has also been removed in favor of `Move Overhead`. This was the 16.1, release date: 2024 so. 2) When did the removal occur? It was of course part of a dev version, here you are: https://github.com/official-stockfis...2a1da15a902395 Code:
Commit af110e0 vondele committed on Jul 11, 2023 Remove classical evaluation since the introduction of NNUE (first released with Stockfish 12), we have maintained the classical evaluation as part of SF in frozen form. The idea that this code could lead to further inputs to the NN or search did not materialize. Now, after five releases, this PR removes the classical evaluation from SF. Even though this evaluation is probably the best of its class, it has become unimportant for the engine's strength, and there is little need to maintain this code (roughly 25% of SF) going forward, or to expend resources on trying to improve its integration in the NNUE eval. Jul 11, 2023 occurred after Jun 30, 2023 - right? Jun 30, 2023 is the date of SF16 official release. Hence SF16 still enabled HCE (hand crafted evaluation). All the best, Eric Geändert von Tibono (30.01.2026 um 22:44 Uhr) Grund: missing ordered list number |
| Folgender Benutzer sagt Danke zu Tibono für den nützlichen Beitrag: | ||
spacious_mind (30.01.2026) | ||
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Re: ChessSystemTal2-v21 unbesiegbar?
Hi Eric,
on Jul 11, 2023 Remove classical evaluation since the introduction of NNUE (first released with Stockfish 12), we have maintained the classical evaluation as part of SF in frozen form. That still is unclear since it says frozen. That does not say you can turn off the NNUE and play the frozen? I wish I would have kept my copy of 16. I only have 16.1 Regards Nick Geändert von spacious_mind (30.01.2026 um 23:04 Uhr) |
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Re: ChessSystemTal2-v21 unbesiegbar?
Hi Eric,
You are right. I just found my Stockfish 16 and it still has the "Use NNUE" check box so you can turn it on or off. AI's are wrong. ps... the word frozen still seems strange. Do you have a test which can show the difference between NNUE on and NNUE off for Stockfish 16? just to be sure? As it might also be that the check box no longer does anything? Regards Nick Geändert von spacious_mind (30.01.2026 um 23:36 Uhr) |
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Re: ChessSystemTal2-v21 unbesiegbar?
Hi Eric,
Ok, Think I found the differences: Stockfish 16: Yes, it is possible to play Stockfish 16 without the NNUE (Efficiently Updatable Neural Network) evaluation file, but it is not recommended as it will play significantly weaker or perform poorly. As of version 16, Stockfish completely removed the old "handcrafted evaluation" (HCE), making NNUE the sole, mandatory evaluation method. Here are the details on running it without the network: Performance: If the .nnue file is missing or disabled, Stockfish 16 may not have a valid evaluation function, causing it to act erratically or play very poorly. Stockfish 15.1: Performance Differences: While Stockfish 15.1 is designed with NNUE for maximum strength, it still retains the classical evaluation method. However, playing without NNUE makes the engine noticeably weaker in positional understanding, as the NNUE is responsible for a significant portion of its Elo gain. "Hybrid" Option: Some versions of Stockfish 15.1 allow you to use a "hybrid" mode, which combines the classical evaluation with the NNUE network. This could be why 15.1 is quoted as 16 without NNUE was no longer stable? And with 16.1 it was fully removed. Anyway in summary if you play without NNUE its best to just play Stockfish 11: Historical Context: The last pure, non-NNUE versions were similar in strength to Stockfish 11, which was already very strong, but cannot compete with modern NNUE-enabled Stockfish. Regards Geändert von spacious_mind (31.01.2026 um 00:31 Uhr) |
| Folgender Benutzer sagt Danke zu spacious_mind für den nützlichen Beitrag: | ||
Tibono (31.01.2026) | ||
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AW: ChessSystemTal2-v21 unbesiegbar?
Zusammenfassend kann man sagen die ursprünglichen Versionen von CSTal (GitHub) mit nnue aus 2023 sind sehr stark.
Nicht so stark wie Stockfisch aber nahe dran. Und sie spielen interessant. Je mehr Bedenkzeit und kerne desto besser. Ed hat dann das aggressive Spielverhalten getuned was bei Pohl zu einer Verbesserung führte und aber die Spielstärke senkte, was ja auch sinnvoll ist denn diese starken Programme , sind ja nicht lustig . CSTal DOS kann man genauso auf mehr aggressiveres Spiel trimmen. Man kann ja die Parameter alle einstellen mit der Maus. Als ich in Paderborn gegen Genius Chess antreten musste habe ich auch eine spezielle Version mit meinem Beforewin Stil eingeladen.
__________________
Die ganze Welt des Computerschachs Geändert von mclane (31.01.2026 um 07:41 Uhr) |
| Folgende 3 Benutzer sagen Danke zu mclane für den nützlichen Beitrag: | ||
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Re: ChessSystemTal2-v21 unbesiegbar?
Ich habe diese Frage vor etwa einem Monat gestellt, aber niemand hat geantwortet. Deshalb versuche ich es noch einmal.
Weiß jemand, warum der Autor von Chess System Tal 2 in Arena als Evgeniy Korniloff angezeigt wird? Es muss doch einen Grund dafür geben. Hat er beispielsweise Whittington und Schroeder die NNUE-Technologie beigebracht, die zu der enormen Leistungssteigerung geführt hat? Welchen Zusammenhang gibt es? Sicherlich weiß jemand, was dahintersteckt. Regards Nick |
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Re: ChessSystemTal2-v21 unbesiegbar?
PS... ist es vielleicht genau so wie Marco Costalba und Stockfish?
Stockfish ist eine kostenlose Open-Source-Schach-Engine, die von einer Community entwickelt und gewartet wird. Sie entstand aus der Glaurung-Engine von Tord Romstad im Jahr 2004 und wurde 2008 von Marco Costalba weiterentwickelt. Marco's nahme war ja auch damals in Arena unter Stockfish? Gruss Nick |
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AW: ChessSystemTal2-v21 unbesiegbar?
I don't know (as this does not happen for me).
Maybe a small chance for an idea: CSTAL2 NNUE download package was provided with a polyglot-books directory included. Two books inside: a large one, book.bin, and small one Rebel.bin I think I remember I failed to enable these books if using the CSTAL2 exe (maybe a specific issue to Arena?) The work around I found: use polyglot.exe as the front-end. Of course, polyglot has no issue using bin books. Polyglot uses a .ini file linking to both book and back-end engine (here CSTAL2 NNUE). But you may also include many other statements inside this .ini; isn't Korniloff stated here? Copy-pasting both polyglot.exe and a sample .ini is quite usual, to avoid reinventing the wheel. Easy to leave unwanted statements inside the .ini... Worth a check. Geändert von Tibono (31.01.2026 um 14:28 Uhr) Grund: typo |
| Folgender Benutzer sagt Danke zu Tibono für den nützlichen Beitrag: | ||
spacious_mind (31.01.2026) | ||
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Re: ChessSystemTal2-v21 unbesiegbar?
I just download the engine exe files as is and unzip it and upload into Arena, I make no changes. Once loaded I just add the Perfect book to the engine and make sure that tablebases are not active. I do the same with all engines. I don't do manual changes other than core and hash and ponder. This is why I cannot understand once installed why the name comes up. When you start of course it shows Whittington under the search and execution but why the Eugeny name in the setup section? I have only seen this twice ever, with Stockfish and Marco instead of Todd and now with CSTal 2.
Regards Geändert von spacious_mind (31.01.2026 um 15:00 Uhr) |
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