Novag computers und Pocket PC
 

please excuse this english post but my German is too bad...

for pocket pc and Novag computers owners, I have put for download a new release of CEBoard, my chess freeware for pocket pc.

In addition of DGT and UCB, this new release of CEBoard allows the connection of :
1) Novag Star Diamond
2) Novag Sapphire II
3) Novag Sapphire (Super System Distributor needed)
4) Novag Super VIP (Super System Distributor needed)

You can connect these boards to the Pocket PC running CEBoard with a serial cable and :

1) play against these computers within CEBoard interface. CEBoard displays the evaluation, line, etc... of the computers
2) or play normally on the computer with CEBoard connected: CEBoard records the moves as well as the evaluation, etc...
3) import the game in memory of a Star Diamond (was already possible), Sapphire or Sapphire II into a PGN file (but no evaluations are available in this mode)

In addition, but it is not really fair, you can run a game between one of these computers and a CEBoard's engine (Fruit & a few clones or Crafty Classic).

CEBoard's main page

Best,

Alain

PS : next releases will target Super Expert, Renaissance (and every chess computer I own with an RS-232 interface)

AW: Novag computers und Pocket PC
 

Alain,

thats really great news for Novag-Fans. Unfortunately so far I do not have a PDA but I guess its time now to convince my wife that we need such a thing... ;)

No honestly. It looks like that you have a good knowledge to work with the Novag Super-System and the pgn export is already very nice. However, I am curiuos whether you also are able to use the other way to communicate with the Novags. As you know for sure, they offer programmble opening books and I guess it should be also possible to load the contents from the opening book to the PDA and, more important to upload the book(s) to the chess computers. Novag never offered this with the super system officially, but it was possible with the previously released computers like Forte A/B and Super Expert A/B. I think there must be a way to get access to this part of the buffered RAM as well. Did you already think about this one?

best regards
Stefan

AW: Novag computers und Pocket PC
 

Stefan,

I haven't looked at the opening book programming but if its format is correctly documented, it should be possible for all computers offering this feature. I am already communicating both ways with the computers as I can upload a position, for example to make the computer solve some problem.

But I don't think the Super System Distributor will be helpful here : I see only it as a "RS-232 hub" and it does not seem to be "intelligent". So for computers with a programmable opening book like the Super Expert or the Star Diamond, I'm pretty sure that I could implement this feature; but for computers without this feature "inside", it will not be possible.

Best,

Alain

AW: Novag computers und Pocket PC
 

Alain,

here is a brief history about the communication for the Novag Chess computers. It started in 1985 with the Novag Expert, which at least in the later version had the option to connect to a PC, at least this is what is described in the manual. I never saw this working and I have no idea how to connect, because I can only see the printer interface and the chess clock interface. The latter one was in no case used as chess clock interface AND PC interface at the same time in later Novag computers so I guess (there is always the warning NOT to connect the chess clock!), the Experts with computer interface have been upgraded somehow (my Expert works with the chess clock).

With release of the Forte series and up to the Super Forte B, Novag established what they called the "Novag-Interface" option. It was the predecessor of the Super System. No extra hardware modifiction on the chess computer was necessary only the software (delivered on 5,25" disks) and two wire cable was delivered. I never had this thing and I am still looking since quite a while for it, because I think it was really usefull. There was a larger article about in the German CSS magazine 04/87 page 8ff from Bernd Schneider. This is what you will most likely find as a description in the manuals for the Forte A/B and Super Forte/Expert A/B. It was more or less preconfigured (in contrast to the Scisys approach at that time) and had the following features (usually accessable via SET LEVEL -> INTERFACE) on the chess computer side (this one is from the Super Forte A manual):

1. Save game - saves a game via interface to the PC (Floppy-Disk, harddisk?)
2. Load game - load a game via interface into the chess computer RAM
3. Auto analyze - premanent connection between chess computer and PC
4. Game analyze - Send actual game info to PC
5. Save Pro Op - Save actual programmed opening book to the PC
6. Load Pro Op -Save actual programmed opening book to the PC
7. Baud - baud rate (1200 or 9600)

On the PC side there were some more ineresting things in the so called "Transmit" menu:

1. Current position - Receives current position from the Novag computer
2. Load file - load games from disk
3. Create Position - Allows creation of positions on a "board" on the PC and sending it then to the Novag computer
4. Receive - receives main line from the Novag computer
5. Interactive screen - direct communication of moves from Novag computer to PC

For me this clearly shows that there was a communication and the option to read and write to the Novag RAM.

However, and for what reason ever, things changed with the release of the Novag Super System in 1990 for the Super Forte/Expert C (followed later by the Diablo, the Sapphire/Diamond and the Sapphire/Diamond II and last but not least with the Star Diamond/Sapphire). Basically, on the Novag computer (I know for sure for the SFC/SEC and the Diablo, the RISC machines probably have this interface integrated in the embedded CPU) three aditional chips were needed, a 1488 and a 1489 I/O driver and an additional 2 MHz CPU 65C51P2. In addition to that, the "Distributor Box" was announced, but this one does not have any stand alone function as you mentioned correctly. It serves only as a real distributor for connection the Novags with either an external wooden board (Universal Board), a TV interface (this is really a cool thing, I have one ;)) and a PC (note: It was only needed up to the Sapphire/Diamond II).

There was still the way of communication from the Novag to the PC but unfortunately the options, which were given for the old interface program with saving and loading of games and openings, disappeared completely. The Super System approach is, with minor modifications, still used on nowadays Novag computers, namely the Star Diamond and I guess this is what you are actually using. The slight modifications from version to version were mainly in the info section (S1 to S4) and the the first version from the SFC/SEC could not send the contents of th opening book via the interface (this started with the Diablo). The actual description can be downloaded from the Novag homepage I guess, but again, there is no description for loading and saving openings for instance, although you still find it as a feature in many of the old manuals (I guess this is simply by mistake of Novag). But for me there seems to no reason why the RAM of the computer should not be accessable like it was obviously before the release of the Super System, which for me might be more user friendly but from a technical point is not really a step forward. To my knowledge the Super System only allows the transfer of the opening book to the PC but not vice versa (PRO-PRINT).

So, if you have a Novag computer prior to the Super Expert/Forte C, the information you will get from connection it to a PC might be different. Unfortunately I do not have any further information, neither about the data format not about the two wire cable, but if you wish I can send you a copy of the CSS article mentioned above.

hope to see opening book functionality soon ;) regards
Stefan

AW: Novag computers und Pocket PC
 

Hi Stefan,

thanks for your article, this is really interesting. I don't need the CSS : I have bought the DVD archive and will try to read the article (which can take some time as my German is quite poor in spite of 10 years of German at school).

I am not sure to understand what you mean by "the option to read and write to the Novag RAM" : I don't think that the old machines gave a direct access to their ram but rather that they provided another protocol with the PC.

I'll try to read CSS article to get a better understanding of the old interface but it will probably not be very useful anyway as my Super Forte does not work very well (I connected it tonight to my pc and the pc received something... although it was not readable).

For the Star Diamond, I must admit that I have never tried to enter a custom opening book and I'll have to read other languages manuals as the French manual is not really clear : it seems that you can only enter one line (or at least, it does not explain how to enter a tree).

I'll try to investigate a bit further, thanks again for your post which was really interesting.

Best,

Alain

AW: Novag computers und Pocket PC
 

Alain,

entering trees is not possible anymore since the Diablo release. It worked only for the Super Conny, Forte A/B and Super Forte A/B/C. Since then you can only enter single lines. However, at least for the Diablo it seems that even this one is not working correctly (please refer to this posting here).

With "read and write" to the Novag RAM I meant the possibility to get the opening book loaded into the PC modify it there and send the modified opening book file back to the Novag chesscomputer. This was possible in the 1st release of the interface as far as I understand it. I am sure that there is a protocol for this but as I never had this software I cannot give any further info, sorry :o

best regards
Stefan

AW: Novag computers und Pocket PC
 

Hi Stefan
thanks for the precision, I'll try to play with this feature of my SD in order to get a better understanding.
I will also investigate it and hope to have good new for you in a few days or weeks (even if I don't succeed with the opening books, I think I'll transpose to the PC all the work done for the Pocket PC).

Best,

Alain

AW: Novag computers und Pocket PC
 

Hi Stefan,

since Chrismas I own a Star Diamond :).
Now I'm checking out the usability of the PC interface. I use the scripting language Python. Python offers a programmer library for the RS 232 interface. With that library I build a wrapper around the complicated commands of the PC protocol. It seems to work.

This evening I successfully added some openings; here are my samples:
e2e4 c7c5 g1f3 b8c6 d2d4 c5xd4 f3xd4 g8f6 b1c3
e2e4 c7c5 g1f3 b8c6 c2c3 d7d5
e2e4 e7e6 d2d4 d7d5 b1c3 f8b4
g2g4 e7e5 f2f3
g2g4 e7e6 f2f3

If you ask the Novag about its internal representation, it answers:
. __white __black
m 1 e2-e4
m 1 _______c7-c5
m 2 g1-f3
m 2 _______b8-c6
m 3 d2-d4
m 3 _______c5xd4
m 4 f3xd4
m 4 _______g8-f6
m 5 b1-c3

m 3 c2-c3
m 3 _______d7-d5

m 1 _______e7-e6
m 2 d2-d4
m 2 _______d7-d5
m 3 b1-c3
m 3 _______f8-b4

m 1 g2-g4
m 1 _______e7-e5
m 2 f2-f3

m 1 _______e7-e6
m 2 f2-f3
(I added the underscores to get the spacing right).

You see, its like a tree. And it works :)
With only (g2g4 e7e5 f2f3, g2g4 e7e6 f2f3) I won some quick games with black against the Star Diamond (after forcing it to use the programmed opening book).

From the tranmit menu you mention above 1 and 3 are definitely possible with the Star Diamond. The others probably too.

My first plan is to transfer an opening book for given pgn files.
Another plan is to make the build-in book visible (and to avoid these openings within the user defined openings).

Cheers,
Bernd

AW: Novag computers und Pocket PC
 

Hello,

this is very interesting !
When you say "If you ask the Novag about its internal representation", do you act on SD's buttons ? or do you send a command through the serial interface ?

I suppose that "KB05" will work, and sending all the keys this way should probably allow the programmation of the book, but I'd like to have another command, which would have more chances to work with other Novag computers.

Thanks,

Best regards,

Alain

AW: Novag computers und Pocket PC
 

Alain, Bernd,

I am really glad to see a team now working on this topic, I am sure this will speed up things tremendously ;).

Regarding the trees:

Bernd you are right, it looks like that a tree structure is saved. The difference between the old models and the "newer" ones (since the Diablo) is as follows:

For the SFC you could enter the following:

1.e4 d5 2.e4xd5 Nf6 3.c4 e6 4.dxe6 Bxe6 5.Nf3 Qe7 6.Qe2 Nc6

as a first line. To add a varaition of this line you just have to take back lets say in this case 4 moves via the "Take Back" function on the computer and continue then with

5.d4 Bb4+ 6.Bd2 Bxd2+ etc...

I guess for the new ones (like Diablo, Saphhire, Star Sapphire) you have to do it with 2 complete lines:

1.e4 d5 2.e4xd5 Nf6 3.c4 e6 4.dxe6 Bxe6 5.Nf3 Qe7 6.Qe2 Nc6
1.e4 d5 2.e4xd5 Nf6 3.c4 e6 4.dxe6 Bxe6 5.d4 Bb4+ 6.Bd2 Bxd2+

Thats the difference, but it might be that the internal format for this is similar, means its both saved like a "tree".

best regards
Stefan

AW: Novag computers und Pocket PC
 

Hello,

Yes I use the 'KB5' command. You must send Newgame before ...

* Request stored user openings

• Send NEWGAME-key: 'N'
• Send PRO-OPPRINT-key: 'KB5'

PRO-OP PRINT only works from a New Game position and at least one programmable opening
book move must have been saved. (English Star Diamnond Manual)

Yes, you add complete lines starting after sending 'NEWGAME' and 'REFEREE ON'

(English SD Manual): This function allows the user to save the user programmable opening book at the highest priority, which means each new entry will be placed in front of all stored opening books.

• NEWGAME-key: 'N'
• REFEREE MODE on: 'U ON'
• Enter opening book moves: 'M e2e4', 'M d7d5', ...
• PRO-OPPRIORITY (Save): 'KB2'

I successfully inserted 3071 plies. After that my Star Diamond was a King's Gambit Falkbeer specialist!

When the opening book is full, the pc interface gives no feedback. A workaround is to request with PRO-OPPRINTthe stored opening book and count the plies.

The english manual (not the german or others) tells about the capabilities:

• Opening Book Size (ply) >> 123,000
• Maximum Opening Book Depth 60 ply
• Programmable Opening Moves 3,000 ply
• Game and Opening Memory Yes
• Games can be saved up to 64 games

Via the 'SENDINFO' and 'NEXT BEST'command I tried to read the internal opening book. With activated 'SENDINFO'
you get '. d 03 00.57 00:00:01 28/29 482/s d7-d5 BOOK' BUT when you try this in a row, you get the same anwers before all possible answers are handled. Even the RANDOM level changes the answer sequences.

Do somebody knows how to interprete the SENDINFO information? E.g.
m 2 h2-h4
. d 03 00.57 00:00:01 28/29 482/s d7-d5 d1-h5 b8-c6
.+ d 03 00.57 00:00:01 0/29 274/s d7-d5 d1-h5 b8-c6
. d 04 00.19 00:00:01 28/29 466/s d7-d5 d1-h5 b8-c6 f1-b5
.> d 04 00.23 00:00:01 27/29 256/s g8-f6
. d 04 00.42 00:00:01 27/29 418/s g8-f6 g1-f3 d7-d5 b1-c3
.+ d 04 00.42 00:00:01 0/29 496/s g8-f6 g1-f3 d7-d5 b1-c3
. d 05 00.69 00:00:02 28/29 4332/s g8-f6 b1-c3 d7-d5 e4-d5 f6-d5
.+ d 05 00.69 00:00:03 0/29 5798/s g8-f6 b1-c3 d7-d5 e4-d5 f6-d5
. d 06 00.50 00:00:06 28/29 6005/s g8-f6 b1-c3 d7-d5 e4-d5 f6-d5 c3-e4

Best regards,
Bernd

AW: Novag computers und Pocket PC
 

Bernd,

you must have spent days for this ;) and this is exactly the crutial point. Imagine that you are forced to do a reset of the SD (at least this happens on my machine occasionally automatically :confused:, because of the weak electronics, this was already mentioned in several other topics here): All you work is lost then :bigeyes:!!. And this is why it would be great to store the programmed opening book on a disk and send it back to he SD (or others) if needed. In an ideal world there would be even the option to modify the opening book on the PC before sending back :D

I yesterday found an old program from 1995 from Novag (V 1.03) in my floppy disc collection, which has a somehow graphical interface for the Super System. Originally it is written for WIN3.1 but its also running with WIN XP (and W98 I guess). I tested it with the Scorpio. You can start games, change the level, setup positions, save the position, and reload (!) positions as well. I attached two board positions like it is saved on the PC, maybe it helps. When you reload the position first there comes an error message on the Scorpio and then it switches to verify and then to referee mode. The position is then setup be playing all moves which have been played. In this case I saved the position after having played some moves (ex: colle.brd), but it works similar, when you just setup a position and then start to play (example eg.brd)

Besides some stability issues it seems to work reasonable. In addition there is also a printing function, but I did not test this yet.

best regards
Stefan