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  #231  
Alt 12.12.2019, 00:13
Hartmut Hartmut ist gerade online
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AW: Der DGT Centaur - Die Review

 Zitat von Eric1956 Beitrag anzeigen
And you think that comparing price setting from a computer in the 1980's and a chess computer from 2019 is comparable?
Well, I have compared the pricing of a computer of the 80s with another computer of the 80s. (Apple Mac vs. Windows). In this case, I don't think Apple was overpriced because it had many advantages over Windows computers.

When I compare the price of 2 chess computers of today, I also expect that a product with a high price has advantages over another product with a lower price (you can call me naive for that...). And I don't see this advantage for myself. If someone else sees these advantages for himself, that's OK with me. That's all I said.

By the way: I know that many people have an iPhone. I don't have one because I don't need it. And it has no advantages for me compared to other smartphones. So I'll never buy an iphone. If someone else does.... well, why not. Maybe he sees advantages in it that I don't see. I still have an old mobile, ten years old. People can call me if I am out of the house. That's all I need. I don't need a virtual world when I am out. There is an interesting real world around me.

For many it's also a prestige thing. I've never given anything to it and I still don't today. If someone needs that for his self-confidence or really has an advantage from it then be it so. I see no advantage in it for me and my self-confidence does not need an iphone cure.
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Eric1956 (12.12.2019)
  #232  
Alt 12.12.2019, 00:27
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AW: Der DGT Centaur - Die Review

Eric,
But if you compare these both "overpriced" products like the latest iPhone and the Centaur, you have to considerate that the first is a top performant product with all features equipped ‘state of the art’, that fits even for professionals, the Centaur is far away from that. It would like comparing it with a simple prepaid plastic phone without gps etc. with a luxury price segment item.
However the iPhone wants to be you best friend too, that’s why it becomes the daily rider for so many which become dependent or even addicted to.
I think this risk is not given for our best plastic friend in black & white.
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Eric1956 (12.12.2019)
  #233  
Alt 12.12.2019, 00:45
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AW: Der DGT Centaur - Die Review

 Zitat von Hartmut Beitrag anzeigen
By the way: I know that many people have an iPhone. I don't have one because I don't need it. And it has no advantages for me compared to other smartphones. So I'll never buy an iphone. If someone else does.... well, why not. Maybe he sees advantages in it that I don't see. I still have an old mobile, ten years old. People can call me if I am out of the house. That's all I need.
There is the difference. For you a phone is a phone, for me it's my pocket computer that I need for work. Auto agenda synchronization, email, passwords, , banking, connected to my server if I have to show pictures on location, watch my house when I'm away, put on the heating at work when I have to work on a day off, etc. I can even use it as a phone.

B.t.w. I misunderstood your way of comparing.

On the other hand, I only wanted to point out that I'm sure that members who think that the Centaur is overpriced, buy products of which others will think they are overpriced. It's worth what you think it's worth. Thats all.
It was never ment to become a discussion what an iPhone is worth to me...
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Nisse (12.12.2019)
  #234  
Alt 12.12.2019, 00:47
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AW: Der DGT Centaur - Die Review

 Zitat von Leoschach Beitrag anzeigen
Hallo! Ich habe den Centaur nun auch schon eine ganze Weile.
Ich nehme ihn immer gerne heraus und spiele ein paar Partien. Es ist von Vorteil, wenn der Schachcomputer sehr flach ist und nicht viel Platz braucht. Ein München Brett ist schön- aber es braucht halt Platz. Außerdem gefällt mir das Design auch ganz gut.
Nun gut, die Eröffnungen beim Freund-Modus sind etwas gewöhnungsbedürftig, vor allem das Spiel mit den Bauern. Aber es macht Spaß damit zu spielen.
Man spart sich das Stromkabel, er ist leicht und antwortet eigentlich sehr schnell. Ideal: jetzt schnell eine Partie spielen. Ich finde den Preis ganz in Ordnung. Ich finde, er ist ein gelungener Schachcomputer zum einfach drauf los spielen.
Nur der Ordnung halber: ich habe sehr viele alte Schachcomputer: Genius, Risc, Magellan, und auch neue (King).
Fazit: Das abwechselnde Spiel: einmal einen alten Mephisto mit Vancouver und dann mal den Centaur - das macht mir Spaß.
LG Leo

Die Zeiteinteilung des Centauren gefällt mir nicht und bietet zu wenig. Die ist schon ziemlich "unterirdisch".


Grüße
Otto
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  #235  
Alt 12.12.2019, 01:16
Hartmut Hartmut ist gerade online
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AW: Der DGT Centaur - Die Review

 Zitat von Eric1956 Beitrag anzeigen
There is the difference. For you a phone is a phone, for me it's my pocket computer that I need for work. Auto agenda synchronization, email, passwords, , banking, connected to my server if I have to show pictures on location, watch my house when I'm away, put on the heating at work when I have to work on a day off, etc. I can even use it as a phone.
That's really a difference. As I said. If it gives you an advantage, then its worth it. For you.

Zitieren:
B.t.w. I misunderstood your way of comparing.
Shit happens. I guess you know now, what I meant and all is fine.

Zitieren:
On the other hand, I only wanted to point out that I'm sure that members who think that the Centaur is overpriced, buy products of which others will think they are overpriced. It's worth what you think it's worth. Thats all.
It was never ment to become a discussion what an iPhone is worth to me...
I know what you wanted to point out and I got your opinion of course. That's why I said that the centaur and an iphone for example are two pairs of shoes. There are also people who buy things because they are rare or because they are expensive, for prestige, not because those things are better than others. And having an iPhone, being a member of the big Apple family, sometimes has something almost religious or sectarian about it, at least as long as the iphone doesn't have a significant advantage over a cheaper device. The same can be seen in cars, in dresses, in shoes and many other things. They are status symbols. With a chess computer with which I want to practice and improve, however, one sets - as long as it is not a collector's item - other standards. And the Centaur does not meet these standards... FOR ME. Maybe it does meet them for you. And as long as it does, it has its raison d'être.
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Eric1956 (12.12.2019)
  #236  
Alt 12.12.2019, 01:17
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 Zitat von Nisse Beitrag anzeigen
Eric,
But if you compare these both "overpriced" products like the latest iPhone and the Centaur, you have to considerate that the first is a top performant product with all features equipped ‘state of the art’, that fits even for professionals, the Centaur is far away from that. It would like comparing it with a simple prepaid plastic phone without gps etc. with a luxury price segment item.
However the iPhone wants to be you best friend too, that’s why it becomes the daily rider for so many which become dependent or even addicted to.
I think this risk is not given for our best plastic friend in black & white.
I don't want to compare the products, only the "what is it worth" price.
On this forum I read enthousiast story's about old chess computers. A lot of them don't play on high level, yet they are still very wanted as a collectors item and well payed for. To high a price for the level of play, but for the collector worth the price.
That's what I have with my Centaur. The way of operating is unique for a modern chess computer. The way it plays against a player of my level is pure fun for me.
It's made of plastic, so what? Do you play better when the board and pieces are made of wood? I play for the game, not for the looks. I think the concept of the Centaur is brilliant for players like me.
No connection for updates? Are there any rules in chess that have been changed in the past 100 years? If it works, don't try to fix it.
All the comments of shortcomings like "It can't be connected to internet to play against other computers".... Well, I bought it to play against me.
If the Centaur isn't good enough for you, then don't buy it. The shop in the Netherlands where I bought mine told me that there is more demand than they can deliver. The reviews of buyers show that there are many more satisfied owners than disappointed ones.
What I don't understand is why it's so hard to accept for a lot of members here that there are chess players who are very happy with the Centaur.
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  #237  
Alt 12.12.2019, 01:44
Hartmut Hartmut ist gerade online
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AW: Der DGT Centaur - Die Review

 Zitat von Eric1956 Beitrag anzeigen
What I don't understand is why it's so hard to accept for a lot of members here that there are chess players who are very happy with the Centaur.
I can understand this view very well and have no problem with it. If a player just wants to play for fun, it's certainly a good device. That's OK for me.

The problem I have with it is that I want to improve as a player, that I want to use it for training. And depending on how intensively you do that, you will sooner or later reach the limits of the device. For the serious player these limits already start with the possible time settings, which are not flexible enough. For me they start with the fact that on the one hand it is much too weak in friendly-mode, still makes too many artificially produced mistakes in the higher setting and on the other hand can't be beaten in the third and highest setting. For a sensible training the device is therefore not usable for me. Maybe for a blitz-game, also human players make big mistakes in blitz-games. You don't notice any difference with the friendly-mode in this case. As soon as it goes beyond blitz-games, the mistakes become a bit silly for me. If the device responds with a much bigger mistake (and he did that in my test games) as soon as I have made a mistake, then it is less a training partner than a loving father who wants to give his son a sense of achievement. And for me this father-son-experience is not worth 400 Euro.
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Eric1956 (12.12.2019)
  #238  
Alt 12.12.2019, 02:12
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AW: Der DGT Centaur - Die Review

 Zitat von Eric1956 Beitrag anzeigen
I don't want to compare the products, only the "what is it worth" price.
On this forum I read enthousiast story's about old chess computers. A lot of them don't play on high level, yet they are still very wanted as a collectors item and well payed for.
What I don't understand is why it's so hard to accept for a lot of members here that there are chess players who are very happy with the Centaur.
I don’t see any member here who do not accept Centaur fans. Yes, he’s different, it changes and gives a fresh line. From time to time it’s fun, so that’s ok. (For me).
Price discussing is not reasonable, and won’t change anything, as far as users are willing to pay.

The real thing is, that old chess computers are completely different playing. I recently acquired a Chesscomputer from 1983 (Programmed by Nitsche) which seems to have a real soul. You even hear the electronic softly switching inside the magnetics. It’s amazing and exactly was a searched: a chess partner who plays my level, without taking me as a stupid or simulating weakness to wipe me off at the end. This low level play style (of this mm1) has nothing in common with the reduced levels of the latest millennium products and even less with the friendly Centaur.

This great looking 3kg exclusive board (wood) can be used with batteries, so no cable stuff needed. It replaced the b&w plastic toy and found his place on a table in the fireplace room in my country house, always ready to play, attractive even for visitors.

The Centaur will be used on vacation with children or relaxed in garden during long summer days , or maybe in an office waiting area.
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  #239  
Alt 13.12.2019, 01:09
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AW: Der DGT Centaur - Die Review

 Zitat von Hartmut Beitrag anzeigen
I can understand this view very well and have no problem with it. If a player just wants to play for fun, it's certainly a good device. That's OK for me.

The problem I have with it is that I want to improve as a player, that I want to use it for training. And depending on how intensively you do that, you will sooner or later reach the limits of the device. For the serious player these limits already start with the possible time settings, which are not flexible enough.
Hartmut, thank you for confirming my opinion in your way. I said before, if it doesn't measure your standards, don't buy it. DGT says it's your chess friend, not your chess coach. I don't think it's ment for the serious (high level) player who wants to learn and improve , but for the recreational player.
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  #240  
Alt 13.12.2019, 01:32
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AW: Der DGT Centaur - Die Review

 Zitat von Nisse Beitrag anzeigen
I don’t see any member here who do not accept Centaur fans. Yes, he’s different, it changes and gives a fresh line. From time to time it’s fun, so that’s ok. (For me).
Price discussing is not reasonable, and won’t change anything, as far as users are willing to pay.

The real thing is, that old chess computers are completely different playing. I recently acquired a Chesscomputer from 1983 (Programmed by Nitsche) which seems to have a real soul. You even hear the electronic softly switching inside the magnetics. It’s amazing and exactly was a searched: a chess partner who plays my level, without taking me as a stupid or simulating weakness to wipe me off at the end. This low level play style (of this mm1) has nothing in common with the reduced levels of the latest millennium products and even less with the friendly Centaur.

This great looking 3kg exclusive board (wood) can be used with batteries, so no cable stuff needed. It replaced the b&w plastic toy and found his place on a table in the fireplace room in my country house, always ready to play, attractive even for visitors.
Hi Nisse,
I think you misunderstood me. I didn't say that Centaur fans weren't accepted, but the Centaur itself isn't accepted as a full chess computer. Even you compare the Centaur with older chess computers with a "soul"?
Just don't compare the Centaur, because it's one of its kind.
Obviously you want a chess computer to have "looks" so you can expose it as a piece of art. For me (and I guess also for the Centaur) totally irrelevant.

You would never buy the Centaur, I would never buy a computer from the 80's and Think we both don't have problem with that.
What I ment is that some members can't understand how you can buy a Centaur if you are a serious chess player who wants to improve his skills. Well, I'm not a serious player, just recreational. Some members are so serious that they obviously can't believe that there are chess players who don't take chess that serious.

I think there are members that hardly play against the chess computer themselves, but only let their computers play against each other. Well, that's where the fun stops for me.
Please give everyone the freedom to enjoy his own fun.
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